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Are the Sami White?

Biological and physical anthropology. General discussion of physical human variation belongs here.

Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Savant » April 27th, 2012, 8:23 am

Osweo wrote:Occidentalism must obviously be some kind of ideology based on the communal heritage of the Western European Romano-Germanic world, and its extension into the New World, i.e. the raison d´etre of this forum, n´est pas?¿¿?


Very well, I just never heard "Occidentalism" defined as a definitive ideology or world view. But perhaps we've just changed that... :lol: But you failed to address what this "ideology" or world view has to do with Saami, as if "Occidentalism" has some uniform position on the Saami and their degree of whiteness. As a presumed "Occidentalist" myself, I haven't heard of it. In fact, your Euro Nationalist compatriot Enya seems to be one of the stronger naysayers. To me personally, and I think for most, having a discussion which is fundamentally about a racial issue is different from having a discussion which is fundamentally about a geographical issue. Perhaps we need to define which aspect of the Saami we're talking about?

Sami have to do with this that they are inhabitants of Scandinavia, and though have been peripheral to the historical processes at work in the Occident for many centuries, are still members of its Romano-Germanic Catholico-Protestant world. Given that ´Whiteness´ is a very new category of relevance only to the Colonial part of this world, and of problematic application to realia back here in the real Old World, I spoke out about the errors commited even by bringing up the thread title in the first place.


Not really, "whiteness" has been around since at least the Crusades, and I've heard it said that it had been used prior to that in Roman times. I have to admit that I am not a scholar on the issue, but the notion that it is a new concept, or that it is purely of the New World is simply fictional.

As for politics, well, whatever concrete forms Occidentalism may take, key to all of them will be achieving a following, and a great way to NOT do that, and remain politically, culturally and historically irrelevant is to harp on about daft things like the ´whiteness´ of native European ethnicities.

Capiche¿?

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What has ever led you to believe that the "whiteness" of Saami would be a talking point or part of an "occidentalist" political platform? That's a puzzling conclusion... :s

On the ´oldness´ of various European ethnicities:

ANOTHER stupid red herring. We all change, and no ethnic group suddenly appears out of nowhere. All of us are combination of new innovations and ancient inherited traits. Claiming pre-eminence or prestige based on being written about earlier than others or having left recogniseable remains is a load of crap. I´m an Englishman, and from England. Whether England is 1500 years old or 15,000 is utterly irrelevant to any real world consideration. And there are NO certainties when it comes to prehistory.


Old habits die hard, eh Os? Of course we know you just killed a strawman there, and I never said that any ethnic group appears out of nowhere. I never said that claims to pre-eminence or prestige were legitimized by any criteria or not, so I don't know why you felt the need to refute it. I simply questioned the notion that they were among the "most ancient groups of people in Europe". I do have to refute the claim that there are no certainties when it comes to prehistory; there are some prehistorical findings which are rather hard to refute and do offer some rather concrete presumptions that are very difficult to refute.
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Such unadulterated arrogance that goes unchallenged
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he knows there's no one in this forum capable of taking him on
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his personality is too strong, bigger than the forum itself
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Osweo » April 27th, 2012, 10:14 am

Savant wrote:Very well, I just never heard "Occidentalism" defined as a definitive ideology or world view.

Obviously, it doesn´t exist as such, but if it did, then its very name would define at least the parameters of what it would be about, parameters whose vague outlines I gave in that post. I assume that the forum, using the Occidental term in its title, conforms to this to a greater or lesser extent.
But perhaps we've just changed that... :lol: But you failed to address what this "ideology" or world view has to do with Saami, as if "Occidentalism" has some uniform position on the Saami and their degree of whiteness.

Au contraire, mon frere, I spoke quite succintly on this, my central point, that any discussion of ´whiteness´ is quite irrelevant to Occidental matters when we are discussing the Old World, where the Occidental World was born, and the situation in which must NOT be disregarded by those living in the Colonies of the Occident.
As a presumed "Occidentalist" myself, I haven't heard of it. In fact, your Euro Nationalist compatriot Enya seems to be one of the stronger naysayers.

Enya´s politics are her own! :D
I´ve not seen her deny the existence of a Romano-Germanic world, however.
To me personally, and I think for most, having a discussion which is fundamentally about a racial issue is different from having a discussion which is fundamentally about a geographical issue. Perhaps we need to define which aspect of the Saami we're talking about?

Exactly, and ´White´ is NOT a useful term in a strictly scientific discussion of the physical anthropology of the Lapps. As you are using it, White is a distinctively colonial term. The former Imperial states of Europe obviously have some acquaintance with the term, thanks to their old interactions with non-European populations, but they have never traditionally used it to refer to fellow Europeans.

You speak of the Crusades, but if you were to go up to some Jorsalafara in the 1100s, and try to get this idea out of him that the thing which distinguished himself from the negroid slaves he encountered in the Near East was the same that distinguished him from his Finnsker neighbours back home... well, he would laugh at you. No doubt he or a few of his fellow armed-pilgrims could even boast a Sami grandmother or the like.

On these fora (and you can´t deny that OE does NOT exist in a vaccuum), we all too often hear of idiotic discussions on the ´Whiteness´ of many European groups, with obvious impact on whether or not certain Europeans feel comfortable on the fora. Naturally, given the dominance of US Americans on the anglophone internet, just about the only nations immune from this are those that provided the main stocks of the traditional US population; British and German. Obviously, there is NO occident without the Italians, Spaniards and French, and I don´t want to see an avowedly occidental forum become a place where any of these are irritated by such discussions.
Not really, "whiteness" has been around since at least the Crusades, and I've heard it said that it had been used prior to that in Roman times. I have to admit that I am not a scholar on the issue, but the notion that it is a new concept, or that it is purely of the New World is simply fictional.

The words that translate the English ´white´ in the relevant languages did NOT signify that peculiar collection of concepts, racial AND cultural, that are understood under the American term ´White´, which I capitalise for a reason.
What has ever led you to believe that the "whiteness" of Saami would be a talking point or part of an "occidentalist" political platform? That's a puzzling conclusion... :s

Everything in life is politics, and the things that politically minded people are seen to be interested in cannot but have an impact on how they are perceived by others. This is an Occidental site and already after just a few weeks, the perennial question of ´Whiteness´ of a peripheral European population has come up, suggesting that the two things are connected in some way. You don´t see this question come up on bodybuilding or birdwatching fora, you know!

Old habits die hard, eh Os? Of course we know you just killed a strawman there, and I never said that any ethnic group appears out of nowhere. I never said that claims to pre-eminence or prestige were legitimized by any criteria or not, so I don't know why you felt the need to refute it. I simply questioned the notion that they were among the "most ancient groups of people in Europe". I do have to refute the claim that there are no certainties when it comes to prehistory; there are some prehistorical findings which are rather hard to refute and do offer some rather concrete presumptions that are very difficult to refute.

I wasn´t talking to you then, so it seems your old habits of thinking that the world spins around yourself are still alive and well too... ;)

Other people in the thread made the kind of obeisance to the óldness´ of the Sami that I am referring to, and I commented on this for the folly it is.
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby nitsu » July 13th, 2012, 4:43 am

They don't look white.
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Mercury » December 1st, 2012, 7:28 am

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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Imperator » December 1st, 2012, 7:36 am

Good question. They're like a European version of Eskimos. Some of them look a little off but most Sami have intermixed to a point it's pretty hard to tell them apart from Norwegians or Swedes. They don't really practice a culture that is so different from their Scadianavian neighbors nor do they look so different that they are always easily distinguished from other Scandinavians. In short, they're white.
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Rask II-Age of Kings » December 1st, 2012, 12:27 pm

They're Finns basically.
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Mercury » December 13th, 2012, 6:16 am

The Sami are claimed by some to be the aboriginal Northern Europeans, possibly those who first reentered Europe from ice age refugia after the last glacial maximum. The genetic origin of the Sami is still unknown, though recent genetic research may be providing some clues. Nevertheless, it appears that the Sami represent an old Asian and European population.
Archeological evidence suggests that people along the southern shores of Lake Onega and around Lake Ladoga reached the River Utsjoki in Northern Finnish Lapland before 8100 BC.[7] However, it is not likely that Sámi languages are so old. According to the comparative linguist Ante Aikio, the Sami proto-language developed in South Finland or in Karelia around 2000–2500 years ago, spreading then to northern Fennoscandia.[8] In any case, the Sami are the earliest of the contemporary ethnic groups represented in the Sami area, and are consequently considered the indigenous population of the area.[citation needed]
The genetic lineage of the Sami is unique, and may reflect an early history of geographic isolation, genetic drift, and genetic bottle-necking. The uniqueness of the Sami gene pool has made it one of the most extensively studied genetic population in the world. The most frequent Sami MtDNA (female) haplotype is U5b1, with type V also common.[citation needed]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_history#Origin
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Anarch » December 13th, 2012, 7:35 am

The Saami are descendants of European Christendom. Biologically, they may be an European-Asian hybrid population, but this is insignificant (partially because the Saami themselves are insignifcant). By no means are newly-bred half caste Eurasians to be considered White, because 'White' is a racial-cultural concept that has value in politics. Any newly-bred Eurasian child (for example, half white American, half Japanese) will not have the same uniform cultural heritage on the ethnic, metaethnic or 'civilisational' level, and therefore cannot be encompassed by the term 'White'.
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Maxkwak » May 14th, 2013, 11:17 pm

White is a color, not a race or a nationality or even an ethnicity. It's a social construct that means whatever an individual believes it to mean. Like all other matters of faith, there is no universal truth or veracity to the term; it's just a belief. In terms of color, for example, most people who claim to be "white" really aren't at all. Just walk into any paint store, where there's "eggshell white" and "off white" and "sea sand" and any other imaginable term for a color that isn't really white. There is no white DNA. Who are the "whitest" people in Europe? Could it be the Germans? According to National Geographic, which has extensively studied the DNA of Europeans and other groups around the world through its Genographic program, the AVERAGE German is 46% Northern European, 36% Mediterranean and 17% Southwest Asian. So, is the average German white? Not by the standards of some of these postings. Similarly, according to National Geographic, the AVERAGE British person is 49% Northern European, 33% Mediterranean and 17% Southwest Asian. In fact, most Western and Northern Europeans have some percentage of Southwest Asian admixture. National Geographic has also reconstructed ancient DNA from prehuman Neanderthal and Denisovian (similar to Neanderthals) hominids, and discovered that they didn't die out, as previously believed, but that they intermarried with Western and Northern Europeans, who still carry a small amount of Neanderthal and Denisovian DNA in their genetic makeup. That's not very white, is it? So, the answer to "Are the Sami White?" is simply this: "Nobody is white." That is, except for me - I couldn't tan to save my life! Finns have a percentage of Siberian admixture that most Sami do not share. Sami people are, however, part of the extensive Arctic and traditional reindeer cultures that range from the western coast of Norway to the eastern coast of Siberia. Along the way, some Sami have clearly "rubbed noses" with their neighbors. In the 19th century, for example, the US government brought Sami people to Alaska to teach the Inuits (Eskimos) how to herd reindeer. Some of those Samis stayed in Alaska and intermarried with the Inuits, while others returned to their former homes in Norway, Sweden or Finland. Most Sami Y-DNA is N1c, which is associated with the Fino Ugraic family of languages that includes Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish and Sami languages. The second most common Y-DNA among the Samis is R1a, which is found in highest concentrations in Eastern Europe. The most common mtDNA among Samis is U5b, which is also widespread in North Africa, Spain, Ireland, Great Britain, Eastren Europe and Arabia.The second most common mtDNA among the Sami is V, which is believed to have originated in Spain. Some Sami - a very low percentage - have the mtDNA haplogroup Z, which is found among North Asians, but is absent in other parts of Europe. Samis, like Europeans such as Germans, are mixed.
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Re: Are the Sami White?

Postby Joe McCarthy » May 14th, 2013, 11:59 pm

So you're saying Germans aren't white because they have ancient lineage from Asia, which was itself caucasoid. It's not like those Southwest Asians were gooks, ya know. :roll:

That's sort of like saying Greeks aren't white because some of their Greek compatriots long had roots and settlements in Asia Minor.

And for what it's worth, the ancients, such as Juvenal, regarded caucasoids in the Asian part of the Roman Empire to be white, so the assumption that white must mean one had ancestry wholly of the European continent going back x thousands of years is false on its face.
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